Government Steals Gold and Silver at Gunpoint: Liberty Dollar Raided by the Feds

I wouldn't think that applies, although I'm sure the feds will claim it does. Just because someone presses gold into a coin and calls it a dollar doesn't make it legal US tender.

As for the network of merchants willing to accept the Liberty Dollar, that's called barter and it's legal. If I want to trade you x hours of service for x number of your little gold discs, so be it. I could also trade x hours for x pounds of hamburger.

Would it be any different if, insted of coins, they pressed cubes and instead of dollars, they called them... well, Liberty Cubes?

I'm just suggesting that perhaps they flew too high on wings of wax. What you consider barter and what the Feds may see as a rival to the dollar may be one in the same. Given the information so far, it just seems like a plausible explanation.

If you go to the Liberty Dollar site, you can see what the government and fed has said on this. This raid came from out of the blue and took everyone by surprise.

I'm sorry, I'm not seeing your point. Are you supporting or refuting my comments?

The FBI tends not to inform people in advance of raids ... it would defeat the purpose.

Most of the articles in the "In The News" really seem to lend credence to my suggestion. Two of the three most recent stories involve people paying using these coins. One article is titled "Liberty Services issues copper dollar to compete with U.S. $1" ... the whole article section basically indicates that the Mint is pissed.

Liberty Dollar was in a case with the government to get the government to remove wording on their site that says the Liberty Dollar is illegal, but there has been no action by the feds prior to this that required Liberty Dollar to stop what they were doing and in fact they said they were allowed to mint coins and print paper as long as it was not distributed as "legal tender".

Claudia Dickens, spokeswoman for the U.S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, said American Liberty Currency is legitimate.
"There's nothing illegal about this," Dickens said after the Treasury Department's legal team reviewed the currency. "As long as it doesn't say legal tender there's nothing wrong with it."

"It's not counterfeit money," concurs Ron Legan, Special Agent in Charge (SAC) of the Seattle, Wash., Secret Service field office.

"If these (NORFED) people want to issue their own money, so be it. It will be interesting to see what the public thinks," Rolnick (The Federal Reserve economist and historian) said.

Usually when a business gets raided by the FBI there has been some sort of correspondence prior to the raid that indicates that they are being investigated and should stop what they are doing. Obviously they do not call ahead to say what time they are coming but the fact they come is usually no surprise.

The recent reports of the coins being used as regular money and people not realizing its not legal tender originally led me to suggest a possible Constitutional issue.

Having checked the linked blog post again, it seems like this may be connected to money laundering and mail fraud (mentioned below as well). That is much more likely than shutting them down for coining money.

But for the record, at least from what I've read, it's not clear that there wasn't an ongoing dialog between the company and the Feds, or that spontaneous raids aren't unheard of. Also, the "okay" from the Treasury came back in 1999; things may have changed since then.

they outsourced Article I section 8 to the federal reserve bank.

absolutely, if anybody should be held accountable to Article 1 section 8 it should be the "federal" reserve.

Congress created the Federal Reserve, so there really isn't any violation.

Technically, barter is legal but it is taxable. The union you speak of would have probably been fine if they had set a value to the hours and reported them as income to the IRS.

(remember that the next time you help a neighbor and he buys you a case of beer - that's taxable income)

The same would be true of these Liberty Dollars. If you're "trading" goods and services for gold coins, it's income that should be reported. I suppose there's also sales tax depending on the goods and services.

I tend to think that these coins themselves are (or should be) legal. Their advertising is deceptive and it's not something I'd get involved with. Of course, the many other mints out there are just as bad or worse.

Another reason I support the FairTax. Under which barter and the sale of used goods is not taxable.

After some thought, I think I would like to clarify my position on this. The constitution gives Congress the power to coin money, we should respect that. And I reallllllly hate being on the side of the AG on this. But if this group wished to make their point, there would be other ways to do so: like using old US Silver Dollars from before the seventies when they actually had silver (if they wanted to make the point about the 'drop' and the weight of real precious metal). And a real silver dollar would be worth more like $20. OR, they could have just printed bank notes. If this group is honest enough, and really has precious metal to back their currency, then people would accept their bank notes. And printing paper currency (so long as it isn't counterfeit US currency) is not prohibited by the Constitution. But something tells me that people probably wouldn't support these guys as much if they were passing paper notes.....

"Owning and trading in gold and silver should no be illegal if everything is perfectly voluntary."

I agree. It's the COINAGE part that I have a problem with. Samy's right, article 1, section 8 is perfectly clear. These guys were trading coins, not paper.

That is all interesting but I wonder how it jibes with the Treasury and the Mint saying are within the law to make and exchange their dollars, so long as they do not represent them as be being legal tender.

Regardless, it would appear they were not raided for being counterfeiters but for money laundering. Which would be why it is the FBI and not the Secret Service leading.

I saw those quotes. The only explanation I can give, as an uninterested observer, is that those spokesmen/women were wrong or lying. They're not really under any obligation to tell the truth (although they should).

It should be noted that the Secret Service Financial Crimes Division

plans, reviews, and coordinates criminal investigations involving Financial Systems Crimes, including ... fraud and related activity in connection with identification documents and fraudulent commercial, fictitious instruments,foreign securities.

The Division also coordinates the activities of the U.S. Secret Service Organized Crimes Program, and oversees money laundering investigations.

Their presence does not rule out my initial hypothesis, but I'm still leaning towards money laundering based on the evidence so far.

No, Josh. Property used, or suspected to have been used, in various suspected criminal activities is subject to seizure. This seizure of gold/silver is exactly the same as seizing the vehicle used by a drug smuggler - no, the car isn't illegal, but it was used for illegal activities. In this case, the gold/silver was used either to mint current money contrary to 18 USC 486 or in laundering money. Either way, the government's "theft" of the gold/silver is justified under both common and statutory law and is just. The law does have to apply to everyone; those doing things you think should be legal aren't excluded. (e.g. It's not unjust for the government to seize a drug dealer's car, although it is unjust that drug dealers are punished for selling a drug on which you cannot overdose. They know the law, and took a risk.)

Why is this not unjust? Just curious what your reasoning is.

The car was used for transfer of contraband. By using the vehicle for that purpose, the car becomes an accomplice, for lack of a better word, to the crime, and therefore subject to "arrest", that is, seizure.

I don't think a fundamental, inalienable right is taken away simply because a bunch of thugs can give it the air of "legality."

How else do you define legality, besides force of arms? Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, and just because something is right doesn't make it legal. However, "stealing", as used in the title of the seed, implies a criminal action, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Under God's law it is stealing.

;-)

Can't argue much against that...

Indeed. It should be considered impossible.

The car was used for transfer of contraband. By using the vehicle for that purpose, the car becomes an accomplice, for lack of a better word, to the crime, and therefore subject to "arrest", that is, seizure

Repeating the lies of our government doesn't give them any more value than they had previously. A car, a boat, or a ton of gold (and I know this is a radical concept) is not a person. They are inanimate objects, incapable of committing a crime.

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, and just because something is right doesn't make it legal.

Assuming that you just typo'd and left out the "a" before "right," you are technically correct. The thugs can pass laws against any or all of our rights, but those laws are void the instant they're passed according to the Supreme Law of the Land. But then again, we're talking about "a goddamned piece of paper" according to the current administration.

Sorry messed up the link - here is the correct one.

My 2/100 of a unit of currency the value of which is determined by fiat by an illegitimate government or whatever:

What are "Hawaii Dala" (or "Data"?) or "Verified First Technologies" or "Clark, Anderson, McNelis and Co" which are mentioned in the search warrant?

Also, the "agent information":pdf has copies of an FBI agent's badge as well as that of a Secret Service agent. Perhaps it is a counterfeiting investigation, with the FBI called in for support, given that they probably have more experience with armed raids...